Beneath

What should we do? What we should do … is just scrap this whole Liaison idea and be done with it. It was a bad idea … and it is getting worse. Anyone in this position is never going to be able to move or advance in either direction … we or anyone else in this or a similar position will continually be in the Damned if we do … Damned if we don’t … and the arguments and criticism will not stop as long as we have Liaisons. Even with getting rid of liaisons the arguments within this community will not stop. So I am walking away from it.

This is not what I play this or any other game for. I want to explorer, kill some monsters (which I can’t do in Uru unfortunately) and relax. Not have to deal with the constant and continual complaints, whining and bitching. If this is what you all enjoy, then go for it … have at it. This is not for me … and I’m sorry … no strike that … I’M NOT SORRY … I have just had enough of this. It just isn’t fun anymore, has not been fun and not worth the effort.

I will apologize to the Liaisons and those who trusted and believe in me. I have tried … I just don’t want to be a part of this anymore. I am done. I said I would hold out for a group decision from the Liaisons … so I let you down on this one to. It just isn’t worth it to me anymore and it is hurting more to stay than to keep trying … and fighting. We … as in any and all of us … DO NOT deserve this.

Please DO NOT contact me through PM, IM, email or in the game asking to to reconsider. I have reached by breaking point and this is no longer a consideration.

Two words: completely understandable.

For clarification: you won’t leave the community and the game, would you?

Sorry to hear you had enough. Although I’m glad you’re stepping away if it was this much nonfun for you. I hope people can decide what to do with the liaisons before everyone else does the same.

You do what you gotta do, Wolfie.

I know that I for one have always thought you are a great member of the community. I hope to see you in Cavern and at the next Mysterium.

BlakeLakem wrote:

You do what you gotta do, Wolfie.

I know that I for one have always thought you are a great member of the community.

Quite so, hope Uru will become fun for you again.

We’re right behind you, whatever you need to do to take care of yourself.

:( Take care CAGreywolf. You have done your best, sad to hear it has come this far, that you are at your breakpoint.

Hopefully you keep coming the the cavern and ages.

:( Also hope that this will shake up those complainers and let them realize what trouble they make and make then rethink their actions.

I don’t know if CAGraywolf’s post constitues a formal resignation, but I’m wondering if there’s a policy that covers how to replace liaisons who resign or who cannot otherwise fulfill their obligations (through illness or whatever.)

CA, though I don’t really know you, I’m sorry to hear that the liaison position, as it is now defined, was not a rewarding one for you. Perhaps some day, with a more solid sense of what is expected, you will reconsider.

http://uruvote.stoneship.org lists that if a liaison resigns, an election is held to fill the position for the remainder of the term.

So, I guess we need our Official Unelected Dictator of Elections to step up, if he is so willing.

Well we were under the impression that the liaison is replaced with the person who got the next highest vote count..so we brought in Prof Askew after wolfie quit.

Apparently the community is supposed to vote on a replacement..not sure who decided that was a good idea but whatever. Given that the community has a hard time voting normally, voting one person in quickly is going to be tiresome.

Prof will be staying on with us until the community decides what they want to do. We have work we want to get done in the mean time.

No skin off my nose either way ;) I just ran across those rules while double-checking the person in 6th place.

Yeah Vort brought them up after we had already contacted Prof..didn’t realise that was the deal myself.

Tweek wrote:

Well we were under the impression that the liaison is replaced with the person who got the next highest vote count..so we brought in Prof Askew after wolfie quit.

Meaning no disrespect to you Tweek or to the good Professor, I don’t know where the liaisons got that impression (assuming your reference to “we” means all of you).

From http://uruvote.stoneship.org/rules:
“If a liaison chooses to resign before his/her term has expired, a new election will be held to fill the remainder of that liason’s term.”

Could you see where unilaterally deciding to name a successor to Wolfie, deciding that voting won’t work because it’s “tiresome,” and then telling the community about it after the fact, might be interpreted as a bit uncommunicative, if not high-handed — and might feed the suspicions of those who’ve had trust issues with the liaisons?

Meaning no criticism of the liaisons here (and Prof. Askew is a great choice — I voted for him previously), but I don’t think actions like this will help the liaisons’ standing with the community.

Yeah…assuming every one read that…which they did not. To be honest…I would be more concerned about the communities standing with us.

Tweek wrote:

To be honest…I would be more concerned about the communities standing with us.

Meaning no disrespect Tweek, but when you’ve dug yourself into a hole it’s a good idea to stop digging. ;)

tkwiggins wrote:

Could you see where unilaterally deciding to name a successor to Wolfie, deciding that voting won’t work because it’s “tiresome,” and then telling the community about it after the fact, might be interpreted as a bit uncommunicative, if not high-handed — and might feed the suspicions of those who’ve had trust issues with the liaisons?

Yup. And, honestly, at this point, none of us really give a dang. All of us are a hairs breadth away from following Wolfie. We have things we are trying to work out, things that we need answered to make continuing in the role of Liaison worth the time and energy we’ve all been putting into it.

And, frankly, one of those major issues is the sheer amounts of CRAP the Liaisons have to put up with to work with the community. Constant mudflinging whatever move we make, personal attacks here and abroad, pigheadedness, arguments, whining, complaints, roadblocks to everything we do to try to improve anything.

We’re all well and truly sick of waiting around for the community to pull it’s collective head out and start seeing the bigger picture, both in and ooc, and every time we try to spur that on, or someone else tries to suggest it, the community shrugs it’s collective shoulders and goes back to the petty infighting and posturing.

You wanna hold an election, cause OMG we can’t have those power-hungry Liaisons making a decision that is meant to save the community months of headache, then you go right ahead and find someone to run an election. I can almost bet you you’ll be electing 5 replacements, not one.

And those 5 will find themselves in the same boat. With a community both apathetic and paranoid, no direction, and with big huge targets on their back.

Fine, for those with “trust issues”

A time line

Wolfie resigns
I contact Vort and Gad at the same time and ask if I should ask Prof to join us.
They both say yes
I ask Prof to join us
Eleri mentions Zardoz may post something about this
Vortmax finds the blurb about people needing to vote a new laision in
I post that Prof was with us.

My views on the nature of how a liaison is replaced has no baring on what happened.

As for digging ones self out of the hole, I stand by my statement. All of us are about ready to just leave you guys to it, to your complaining and your pettiness. Its about time as Eleri said that some of you start looking at the bigger picture instead of personal gratification.

Eleri wrote:

I’m truly sorry to see it’s come to this. I’d encourage you guys to stick out the storm and stay in office. I respect all of you for the hard work you’ve done and the dedication you’ve given and continue to give the community, and wish all of you the best. :(

Look, we screwed up. I admit this. I still think it was a good move, to try and get some things done, but it doesn’t really matter now. If the community doesn’t want him, please have an election to pick the new one, according to the rules. And good luck.

The fact that Liaisons did not seek what to do first and follow those rules speaks enough for it self.

Maybe the Liaisons have lived its usefulness.

I served on the board of trustees for a local organization and when someone resigned, the remaining trustees would appoint an ‘interim’ trustee, who would be replaced (or confirmed) in the next election. This is pretty standard, I think, because a mid-term election is unwieldy and disruptive. I don’t know who made up the rules for the DRCL, but it seems to me that since the current liaisons are already in an elective position, then they have a certain amount of leeway to make changes, or amendments, to the rules, in order to make them workable. The by-laws, if any, should cover this. Giving the explorers at large the power to dictate how things should be done at this stage will certainly not work and will put the liaisons themselves in an untenable position, as I think we’ve seen here. A consensus among such a large and diverse group as the cavern explorers is an impossibility, so the explorers need to be willing to give up a certain amount of ‘control’ to the responsible group and be ready to live by their decisions. If the liaisons make bad decisions then they can be voted out in the next election.

It just blows my mind how some of you folks are so knowledgeable of all that is URU and so lame on the election rules that are only a few months old. You all have repeatedly complained about not having a more defined role when you can’t even follow the simple one that has been laid out.

Actions speak louder than words. ;)

I’m gonna say it just one more time…not that anyone seems to listen

Not everyone has read everything on the uruvote site.

I went there..I voted…I left done I didn’t stick around to smell the CSS values I just voted.

Ah yes, here comes the parade of social vultures, zeroing in on the situation with their smug proclamations and denouncements. D’ni fell because of pride. It seems the new D’ni will fall because of sanctimony.

Hi, folks. I just wanted to step in and say I would like nothing better than to sit in the fifth chair of the DRCLs. I thought Wolfie was a terrific liaison and he will be missed. But, more importantly, he’s a great member of the community and hopefully that won’t change. In fact, I hope he enjoys his return to normalcy and finds peace in Uru

Why would anyone want to put themselves through another election before May with all that’s happening in the Cavern? I believe all the liaisons would like to see me join their ranks. And I believe anyone who’s ever gotten to know me in the Cavern feels the same. I am a strong advocate for communication between the DRC and the Explorers and have been for over three years.

If allowed to take the fifth seat, I will help to rejuvenate the flagging energy of the organization as it stands now. And I hope to show results. I’ll make it clear to Cate what the liaisons are all about and I will make it clear to the DRC that they MUST communicate with us Explorers. And I will reach out to the Explorers to discover their needs and make sure the DRC hears about them.

Sorry if this sounds like a pitch. It is. I want the job. Re-elections are in the spring. Give me a shot until then. I won’t disappoint. ;)

semplerfi wrote:

You all have repeatedly complained about not having a more defined role when you can’t even follow the simple one that has been laid out.

Actions speak louder than words. ;)

Ahh yes, another round of “Liaisons Can’t Do Nothin’ Right” potshots. And people wonder why we’re losing enthusiasm by the second.

Well with 7,700+ members on MO:UL and only a couple dozen posters here, I’d say your not the only ones losing enthusiasm. ;)

lol, thats a flawed arguement ^_^

not surprising MOUL has a bigger member base given its the offical game forum and the DRC site is little known.

BladeLakem wrote:

Ah yes, here comes the parade of social vultures, zeroing in on the situation with their smug proclamations and denouncements. D’ni fell because of pride. It seems the new D’ni will fall because of sanctimony.

Social Vultures? Speaking for myself, I simply tried to insert a few words of pragmatism into the discussion. I’ll be more careful next time – if there is a next time.

I’ve been saying for months, “Do something.” So now, do something. Either accept Professor Askew for the interim position of Liaison, start an election to replace CAGrayWolf now, or start a recall election. Pick one, and do it.

Tweek wrote:

the DRC site is little known.

I still have a hard time understanding why this is. Has the DRC told you not to post there? ;)

daht’ay wrote:

Social Vultures? Speaking for myself, I simply tried to insert a few words of pragmatism into the discussion. I’ll be more careful next time – if there is a next time.

I wasn’t referring to you, daht’ay.

vortmax wrote:

I’ve been saying for months, “Do something.” So now, do something. Either accept Professor Askew for the interim position of Liaison, start an election to replace CAGrayWolf now, or start a recall election. Pick one, and do it.

Ok, how about the Liaison post some notices around about the need to make change here.

daht’ay wrote:

BladeLakem wrote:
Ah yes, here comes the parade of social vultures, zeroing in on the situation with their smug proclamations and denouncements. D’ni fell because of pride. It seems the new D’ni will fall because of sanctimony.

Social Vultures? Speaking for myself, I simply tried to insert a few words of pragmatism into the discussion. I’ll be more careful next time – if there is a next time.

Oh, I don’t think Blade was referring to you.

Anyway, at such a time when the very question of the necessity and usefulness of the Liaisons is being questioned both inside and out, holding elections would serve little purpose, embroil us in further conflict, and end up with the position becoming a “meat grinder” where people become Liaisons, with hands tied by community and DRC, to sit out their terms with no direction until they resign, leading to yet another cycle of elections.

Until we get things worked out, consider Professor Askew your interim fifth liaison.

Gadren wrote:

daht’ay wrote:

BladeLakem wrote:
Ah yes, here comes the parade of social vultures, zeroing in on the situation with their smug proclamations and denouncements. D’ni fell because of pride. It seems the new D’ni will fall because of sanctimony.

Social Vultures? Speaking for myself, I simply tried to insert a few words of pragmatism into the discussion. I’ll be more careful next time – if there is a next time.

Oh, I don’t think Blade was referring to you.

Anyway, at such a time when the very question of the necessity and usefulness of the Liaisons is being questioned both inside and out, holding elections would serve little purpose, embroil us in further conflict, and end up with the position becoming a “meat grinder” where people become Liaisons, with hands tied by community and DRC, to sit out their terms with no direction until they resign, leading to yet another cycle of elections.

Until we get things worked out, consider Professor Askew your interim fifth liaison.

I completely agree Gadren. Finally, a liason who steps boldly up to the plate. Thanks.

Let’s give the liaisons a break, OK? They’ve been getting a lot of undue flak for everything they do or don’t do.

Re-enactment of recent events

Explorers: Do something!
Liaisons: Like what?
Explorers: We dunno…
Liaisons: OK, we’ll keep doing our job.
Explorers: No, you can’t do that! Get some power!
Liaisons: Fine, since one of us left, we’ll change an obscure rule because we feel it’s in the cavern’s best interests.
Explorers: No, you can’t do that! Power-hogs! Who voted you in, anyway?
Liaisons: Uh, you did.

This may rub a few noses the wrong way, but the liaisons have every right to handle things as they are doing, and here is why.

The rules do indeed state, “If a liaison chooses to resign before his/her term has expired, a new election will be held to fill the remainder of that liason’s term.”

However, the rules do not state what the liaisons should do between the resignation and the point at which a new election is completed. Operate in a reduced capacity? That hardly seems reasonable. The logical choice is to pick an interim position holder.

Second, perhaps because no-one here got a lawyer to look over the rules for holes, there is no regulation on the time limit within which a new election must be held to fill the empty position, nor do the rules indicate whose responsibility it is to organize and hold the election. A new election could be weeks away. It could be months. It could be… held out until the next full set of elections.

Of course, if the explorers disagree with how the liaisons handle the situation, you could always stage a recall now – for all four liaisons (you must recall them individually, per the rules!), or wait and vote for different liaisons in the next election.

The choice is yours. For now, I have trust that Professor Askew will make an excellent interim liaison. He was the runner-up in each of the two prior elections.

Marten wrote:

The rules do indeed state, “If a liaison chooses to resign before his/her term has expired, a new election will be held to fill the remainder of that liason’s term.”

I believe that rule was put in after the election with little to no community input. So when people voted for the liaisons, if they even thought about it, quite possibly assumed that if anyone left, the 6th person would step up. I know that’s how I thought it would work.

my 0.2c I think prof. Askew is a good replacement, wether as interim or full liaison. he still seems enthousiastic, (inspite of all the crap he must have seen poured out over the liaisons) and has the energy and the will to talk shop with Cate and the DRC.
I think it is for the best to now go with an interim liaison aka Prof. Askew so the liaisons are again at full strenght.

This also will give time to arrange the new election if one is choosen. I think for this it would be helpfull to set up a poll, keep that up for a week and place announcements at the other forums.

Daht’ay, this is still civiliced for this forum :D

I don’t think the drc will do that much about this bikkering. ‘When sides are chosen’ and ‘destruction is coming’ is paramount in the discusions at this forum and mudslinging seems to be the national sport of some of the residents:D And some play a role and stick to the antagonist they are portraiting no matter what the subject is.
:D But most of us are really quite friendly and only bite on command.

Thumbs up for the liaisons old and interrim.

Prof as interim works for me – like a caretaker manager – until the next elections.

I am happy with the choice of the liaisons.

I suggest a poll here (this forum) to change the “rules”. If I may be so bold, two choices only;
1. If a vacancy occurs the Liaisons shall appoint a replacement to complete the term of office.
2 If a vacancy occurs the sixth person in vote count shall complete the term of office. If the sixth person in vote count does not wish to hold office, the Liaisons will contact the next highest on vote count. This will continue until a replacement is found.

As someone who has written many By-Laws over the years, I could point out that as a “board” they can change the rules. (Sounds to me as if they all agreed and did just that!)

I just have one question:

How can you [certain members of the community] give the Liasons a hard time? It’s not like they have critical roles that determine the success or failure of URU. Their job has simply been to act as a bridge between the explorer community and the DRC. (Personally, I’m not sure where the confusion about their “roles” has come up; they’re elected to be “Liasons”.) To even suggest that they want to assume “power” by foregoing elections in this particular instant is ridiculous, as I can’t imagine what they’d possibly “lord over”. Advance information about age releases? Special communication with the DRC? Isn’t this what their job definition requires them to have anyway?

Honestly…this is my first post in this forum. Why? Because I realize how touchy a subject this is with the community. Sadly, I can’t “understand” it.

I think CAGreywolf is right about the Liasons being a bad idea. To a point. I don’t think the idea itself is bad, but tragically the community is unable to swallow it without impassioned debates. If we really want Liasons, we have to show that we can be civil about them.

Best of luck to Prof. Askew and the other Liasons. You have my support.

For me everyone is very valueable in this community.
So who is chosen as a liaison is ok for me.
And also the choice for Prof I can understand.
But what I cannot understand is that when a person who has the majority of votes in the elections (62%) resigns, there are not be held complete new elections. An interim untill spring I can understand, but my opinion is that you as group have to start on this moment calling out new elections.
The majority gave their voice to a person who is gone now and it cannot be that the voice of that majority is not value anymore.
Just my 2 cents.

I am very sorry that the institution of Liaisons is leading to this kind of personal grieve. As allready stated earlier I personally do not support the idea of liaisons. Communication through the forums still is a better option.
It is more open and it would avoid the hunting on NPC’s in game for news and the reading of chatlogs. Pls update the DRC site
……….

I hope we do not loose you as a community member CAgreywolf. ;)

It seems to me the honorable and just thing to do would be for Askew to “step aside” from the position he should not have in the first place, now that the error has been discovered.

It’s not as if the Liasons are getting a lot of things to pass along from the DRC or the community right now, so it’s not as if they desperately need every position filled right this instant.

First of all, I’m sorry to see CAGrayWolf go. He’s a great person I’ve had the please of meeting in person, and I have absolutely no doubt that he put his heart and soul into making this work as well as humanly possible.

Unfortunately, I’m not surprised to see him go. And perhaps I’m even more sorry about that. Something’s in a sorry state here, and it’s not the liaisons. It’s about the community. I can see it over at Uru Live Forums, and I can see it in an even more concentrated and targeted fashion right here. Apparently, some community members feel that, like politicians, the liaison-elects are there to act as scapegoats for everything that’s wrong in the world (“the world” being Uru/the cavern, here). And it doesn’t matter if the liaisons do something or not: if not, they’re “useless slackers”, and if yes, they naturally didn’t do it exactly as they “ought to have”. Boy, such a representative’s job sure isn’t easy. On top of all the criticism they face from those who elect them, they have to deal with the slight inconvenience that, even now, they still don’t quite know what they are to do and not to do; as I understand it, Cyan’s still working on the specifics, and so, even in the middle of the second term, things are still quite, shall we say, imperfect.

But let’s go back to the community’s posts here. So a liaison has had it. The one, mind you, with by far the most votes; a whopping 62% wanted to see the person elected. And re-elected, too! After all, all of these liaisons had served in the first term as well. Guess they’re not so bad after all, eh? And yet he’s had it. Why? Precisely because of one and the same community behaviour. As he puts it succinctly: “Damned if we do … Damned if we don’t”. And yet! Within mere hours, the first signs of criticism trickle in already, yet again. As if to give the four remaining ones the hint: “guys, just don’t bother any more”. Is the criticism constructive? You can bet not. No, it’s as low, ad-hominem and completely out of substance as “maybe they have outlived their usefulness”. Yeah, gee, that really helps matters! I guess if the concept has outlived its usefulness, we might as well close up shop and not have this thread any more.

There is one single valid piece of criticism: the liaisons overlooked an election rule. They weren’t aware of this. They should have been. They should have, upon passive voting (read: becoming a candidate to elect), thoroughly reviewed under what rules they were actually voted for, and that includes this particular blurb.

But, not only did they make a mistake (a perfectly humane one, I might add; it’s not like any of them have much experience and expertise in the election “business”); as Marten points out, the rule itself is flawed as well! As Marten states:

Marten wrote:

This may rub a few noses the wrong way, but the liaisons have every right to handle things as they are doing, and here is why.

The rules do indeed state, “If a liaison chooses to resign before his/her term has expired, a new election will be held to fill the remainder of that liason’s term.”

However, the rules do not state what the liaisons should do between the resignation and the point at which a new election is completed. Operate in a reduced capacity? That hardly seems reasonable. The logical choice is to pick an interim position holder.

Second, perhaps because no-one here got a lawyer to look over the rules for holes, there is no regulation on the time limit within which a new election must be held to fill the empty position, nor do the rules indicate whose responsibility it is to organize and hold the election. A new election could be weeks away. It could be months. It could be… held out until the next full set of elections.

So, I’m not sure legal counsel is needed to perfect the rule, but it sure should be amended. Specifically, an interim replacement is absolutely needed no matter what. So we need to choose between:
“Between the resignation and the new election, an interim replacement is chosen by the remaining liaisons”
, or:
“Between the resignation and the new election, the person from the previous election with the next-largest public vote becomes an interim replacement”.

Further, a second amendment of “Beyond the interim replacement, a new election for a replacement for the remainder of the term is only to occur on reasonable grounds that the interim replacement would not accurately represent the public’s vote” is quite warranted, especially if that interim replacement is, as was done here by the liaisons(!), chosen by the next-largest public vote. I.e., statistically most likely, people would have voted for this particular person anyway. Which, if it didn’t click with you yet, renders most of the discussion of the liaisons of ignoring/having overseen a rule moot. The likelihood that, between now and the next election, this interim replacement will cause significant harm is small enough; the likelihood that, given a new election just for this one single person, people would have voted for someone different, is even more benign.

And if you care to have the short version: quit being so ridiculous. Blade puts it well:

BladeLakem wrote:

Ah yes, here comes the parade of social vultures, zeroing in on the situation with their smug proclamations and denouncements. D’ni fell because of pride. It seems the new D’ni will fall because of sanctimony.

If you’re all so “holier than thou”, you’re welcome to be candidates of your own for the next election. Moreover, you’re welcome to vote for different people.

Lighten up.

(And since this post sounds so sour, here’s a smiley! :) :D )

Excellent post Chucker, and thanks for adding some good points. I’m just not in the mood for logically discussing at this point. Just frustrated feeling that we’re losing a good member of the community.

Chucker really said everything there is to say about it. What have the liasons done wrong that has made everyone hate them so? So far, I have seen nothing. Then I look at the community.

We almost destroyed ourselves more than once when we were just shards of Uru.

When the DRC came back, the mudflinging began -that day-.

When they wanted Liasons, I’m sure we all remember the hell we put each other through and how the community fractured yet again.

And now, we’re chasing away Liasons.

I came back to the DRC forums because I thought things would have quieted down, and to see what was going on. I shouldn’t have been surprised to see this part of the community biting at the heels of someone they just pushed to the breaking point. There is so much anger and spite here. Be proud. You have done what few could– break someone’s love for a community, for people.

I agree with chucker and Ithil Ken… This is all beyond my comprahension. What on earth has happened to the community to cause things like this.

I’ve never said anything of importance here on the drcsite. I registered when Wolfie posted his first farewell-message. I posted once in a while, to support the liaisons, since I was already afraid of a second farewell-message.

That farewell-message has now been posted, and this time it’s real…

Now, all those people that were constantly nit-picking on the liaisons and were blaming them can be proud of themselves. Hooray.